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#1 johnlgalt

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 09:01 AM

So, here we go - the Spoilers thread.

 

First, a couple of links:

 

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Now, I actually stayed in the theater until they shut off the projector, so I saw all of the credits.  And I noticed Mark Hamill's name beside Dobbu Scay.  What I don't remember is WTF a dobbu scay is....ergo, I need to see the movie again.

 

Now, some points:

 

First off, I find it weird that Rey's story seems more and more like Anakin's story, especially in terms of the hardships they both endured as children.  Neither came from a long established line of Force wielders (that we know of), and yet each, for their generation, is super powerful.  Meanwhile, Kylo Ren doesn't seem all that strong, although he *did* manage to kill his mentor spectacularly.

 

Next:  I noticed a couple of the things mentioned in the links above, but did miss more than one.  I had forgotten about the blue milk, and I most certainly did not recognize many of hte cameos mentioned because, well, I don't know these people.  Or, in other cases, kinda hard to tell 1 frackin' stormtrooper from another.

 

In the 1v1 fight scene between Luke and Ben, I knew that Luke was gonna turn off his saber and take the attack much like Obi-Wan did in A New Hope, I saw that coming before he even walked out - in fact, as soon as he told Leia that no one was truly ever gone.  What I didn't see coming was that he was not there at all.

 

I read 1 review a couple of hours before I left, that was spoiler-free, and it seemed to harp on Laura Dern's character being completely unnecessary - I'm ambivalent about it.  I think the way presented in the movie was not right - her character needed more development, or less screen time - the way we saw it was just not right.  But, I disagree with the reviewer who said that that character took away from the movie plot itself.

 

And what exactly happened in the bowels of Ahch-To, when Rey asked to see her parents and instead saw the Dopplers of herself?

 

Finally, a bit of insight from my sister.  She points out that both that scene as well as the direct mindspeak between Kylo and Rey were very reminiscent of Harry Potter.  I've seen all the movies once, but am not an avid fan like she is, so I'll trust her judgment on this for now.

 

OK, that's my take thus far.  I'm still processing a lot of the movie - I've got some serious doubts about the major characters that I will not yet voice because I need to analyze my thoughts more.


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#2 SamuriHL

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 02:33 PM

I see it again tomorrow so I'll wait until then to post my thought.

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#3 comiskeybum

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 05:10 PM

The good:

 

- Visually stunning movie

- The scene where she kamikaze pilots the ship into Snoke's ship, slicing it, all sound in the scene going silent was f%$king amazing. 

- While predictable, kylo suddenly turning on Snoke, slicing him in half and the light saber flying to Rey and they then fight together was awesome.

- The sexual/attractive tension between them when they talk to each other and touch hands via the force was interesting.

- Snoke being dead.  Im tired of the "emperor" like guy always in the background. Kylo being the clear bad guy/leader is a great decision.

- Luke looking at the two suns with the classic music playing just like when he was young was a nice touch, but too short. They should have allowed the music to play as long as it did originally as he stared out at the horizon.

 

The bad:

 

- Luke's character was not done justice at all. This was a weak way out for Disney. For him to only appear and say nothing at the end of 7 and only be given a quick summarization of what's been going on for years and to die of exhaustion WITHOUT HAVING A REAL SABER BATTLE AKA BAD rear end DARTH VADER IN ROGE ONE MOMENT LIKE WE ALL WANTED WAS STUPID!!!!  I will say its better than when Old Ben just gave up and put up his sword and allowed himself to be killed.  At least Luke kept his promise and stayed on the island while still helping.  But still, I can see why Mark hated this script.  It does not do his character justice, even if he does return for 9 in some way.

 

- The whole lets go find a code breaker on a casino planet mission was just boring and stupid.  I can see that Rian is going to be using these kids, namely the boy featured at the end for his future trilogy (otherwise why put him there?) but we didnt need that Rose and Finn mission at all. Its like they had no idea what to do with Finn's character for this chapter so they came up with this weird side mission.  Same for Poe, he was forced into the movie in a way that didnt work.  

 

- They didnt Kill Leia. So now 9 will just have this weird "where is she and what is she doing" angle going for it.  She should have died when the bridge exploded, like everyone else. Even if Kylo held back, his turning against Snoke could have been further helped by the other Pilots killing his mother.  

 

- The movie had that taste of "disney just wont go there." As far as darker themes go. It still amazes me that they did the Vader scene in Rogue one.

 

 

Overall it was fun and entertaining but the story has too many holes and too many characters that were not used properly.  Lucas is supporting it publicly but I honest wonder what he really thinks about the treatment of Luke's character.  Mark is clearly not happy about it.  


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#4 SamuriHL

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 10:30 PM

I have quite a bit to say about Luke and how he was treated in this movie. Suffice it to say we do not see eye-to-eye on this one. It's 30 years after Return of the Jedi he was trying to rebuild the Jedi Order and because he allowed fear to Cloud his judgment for even a brief moment he caused the situation he was trying to avoid by creating kylo Ren. Obi-Wan told Luke that the truth is often just a matter of perception. From Luke's perspective in that brief moment killing Ben solo and preventing another Darth Vader from ruling the Galaxy made sense. Even though it was a fleeting thought it still had dire consequences. Looking at it from Ben solos perspective he was afraid and not really understanding The Darkside that was taking hold within him and his master turns on him and tries to kill him. That is a pretty big situation for anyone to take on but we know that snoke was manipulating him even during that time. Luke's regret over that situation let him to turn off the force and seek solitude like Yoda did on Dagobah. He came to the realization that the Jedi had a part in all the bad things that have happened to the Galaxy. Allowing the Sith to return allowing Palpatine to rule all happened because of the hubris of the Jedi. Now when you look at the actions of Luke through that perspective you will start to see the vision that Ryan had for this movie. He sees the duality of the Sith and the Jedi as causing chaos and not finding a true balance. In the end he couldn't sit there on the sidelines anymore and had to make an impact the best way he knew how. In that way he really did fulfill the prophecy in my opinion.

My thoughts on Rey are a little more complicated. I obviously don't believe what kylo said about her parentage. When everybody sees the sexual tension between her and kylo I see as them being twins. The same as Luke and Leia and there was plenty of evidence in the movie to support that. I will see it again later today so I can verify what I believe to be true. She is learning about the force quite differently than any traditional Jedi and that is a very good thing that may lead to True Balance in the force.

Kylo is a whiny emo douchebag who provides enough comic relief to be interesting. Now seriously though he's a very complex character which a lot of movies don't ever get to have. That makes him an interesting bad guy because he's not all bad he's not all good and he's very conflicted.

All-in-all I absolutely loved this movie. I agree with the pacing during the Finn Rose mission. And I think they cut out a few parts that really were necessary to hold everything together. In the end though this was a fantastic movie.

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#5 SamuriHL

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 08:49 AM

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Well.....f***.  Not what I wanted to hear.  I'm hoping Abrams throws a wrench in the works on that one.  It's fine if we find out at the end.  No issue with that, but, given her power, I'm sorry, I just don't buy the "yup, she's no one".  BULLS***


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#6 johnlgalt

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 09:09 AM

But Anakin was no one also....

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#7 johnlgalt

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 09:11 AM

Here is a set of stories (the major spoilers continue on the second page, and at the end of the second page are the links to the and other stories) regarding the film.

It breaks down nicely what I saw and did not see.

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#8 johnlgalt

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 09:12 AM


The good:


- Visually stunning movie

- The scene where she kamikaze pilots the ship into Snoke's ship, slicing it, all sound in the scene going silent was f%$king amazing.

- While predictable, kylo suddenly turning on Snoke, slicing him in half and the light saber flying to Rey and they then fight together was awesome.

- The sexual/attractive tension between them when they talk to each other and touch hands via the force was interesting.

- Snoke being dead. Im tired of the "emperor" like guy always in the background. Kylo being the clear bad guy/leader is a great decision.

- Luke looking at the two suns with the classic music playing just like when he was young was a nice touch, but too short. They should have allowed the music to play as long as it did originally as he stared out at the horizon.


The bad:


- Luke's character was not done justice at all. This was a weak way out for Disney. For him to only appear and say nothing at the end of 7 and only be given a quick summarization of what's been going on for years and to die of exhaustion WITHOUT HAVING A REAL SABER BATTLE AKA BAD rear end DARTH VADER IN ROGE ONE MOMENT LIKE WE ALL WANTED WAS STUPID!!!! I will say its better than when Old Ben just gave up and put up his sword and allowed himself to be killed. At least Luke kept his promise and stayed on the island while still helping. But still, I can see why Mark hated this script. It does not do his character justice, even if he does return for 9 in some way.


- The whole lets go find a code breaker on a casino planet mission was just boring and stupid. I can see that Rian is going to be using these kids, namely the boy featured at the end for his future trilogy (otherwise why put him there?) but we didnt need that Rose and Finn mission at all. Its like they had no idea what to do with Finn's character for this chapter so they came up with this weird side mission. Same for Poe, he was forced into the movie in a way that didnt work.


- They didnt Kill Leia. So now 9 will just have this weird "where is she and what is she doing" angle going for it. She should have died when the bridge exploded, like everyone else. Even if Kylo held back, his turning against Snoke could have been further helped by the other Pilots killing his mother.


- The movie had that taste of "disney just wont go there." As far as darker themes go. It still amazes me that they did the Vader scene in Rogue one.



Overall it was fun and entertaining but the story has too many holes and too many characters that were not used properly. Lucas is supporting it publicly but I honest wonder what he really thinks about the treatment of Luke's character. Mark is clearly not happy about it.

Well, he is not happy because he really lived the franchise dream, and he wants to continue to be a party of it. He doesn't like being killed off, simple as that.

Also, like in the original Star Wars, where there was inevitable attraction between Like and Leia, the palpable connection between the 2 could easily be taken as what Sam said, that they are twins. But the big difference here is that Like and Leia's mother died, and with the Father bring Vader, the twins were not only hidden from him but separated to have a better chance at grooming one of the two for the Jedi.

But if Ben and Rey are also twins, that makes 0 sense, because both Han and Leia were alive, and even if Han had given up on Ben, as Leia struggled with that, being his mother, NEITHER would have given up on a daughter as well. And, if Rey was their daughter, even if Han wouldn't have recognized her, Leia would, or rather, hey latent powers in the Force would have.

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#9 johnlgalt

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 09:35 AM

I have quite a bit to say about Luke and how he was treated in this movie. Suffice it to say we do not see eye-to-eye on this one. It's 30 years after Return of the Jedi he was trying to rebuild the Jedi Order and because he allowed fear to Cloud his judgment for even a brief moment he caused the situation he was trying to avoid by creating kylo Ren. Obi-Wan told Luke that the truth is often just a matter of perception. From Luke's perspective in that brief moment killing Ben solo and preventing another Darth Vader from ruling the Galaxy made sense. Even though it was a fleeting thought it still had dire consequences. Looking at it from Ben solos perspective he was afraid and not really understanding The Darkside that was taking hold within him and his master turns on him and tries to kill him. That is a pretty big situation for anyone to take on but we know that snoke was manipulating him even during that time. Luke's regret over that situation let him to turn off the force and seek solitude like Yoda did on Dagobah. He came to the realization that the Jedi had a part in all the bad things that have happened to the Galaxy. Allowing the Sith to return allowing Palpatine to rule all happened because of the hubris of the Jedi. Now when you look at the actions of Luke through that perspective you will start to see the vision that Ryan had for this movie. He sees the duality of the Sith and the Jedi as causing chaos and not finding a true balance. In the end he couldn't sit there on the sidelines anymore and had to make an impact the best way he knew how. In that way he really did fulfill the prophecy in my opinion.

My thoughts on Rey are a little more complicated. I obviously don't believe what kylo said about her parentage. When everybody sees the sexual tension between her and kylo I see as them being twins. The same as Luke and Leia and there was plenty of evidence in the movie to support that. I will see it again later today so I can verify what I believe to be true. She is learning about the force quite differently than any traditional Jedi and that is a very good thing that may lead to True Balance in the force.

Kylo is a whiny emo douchebag who provides enough comic relief to be interesting. Now seriously though he's a very complex character which a lot of movies don't ever get to have. That makes him an interesting bad guy because he's not all bad he's not all good and he's very conflicted.

All-in-all I absolutely loved this movie. I agree with the pacing during the Finn Rose mission. And I think they cut out a few parts that really were necessary to hold everything together. In the end though this was a fantastic movie.

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You're points about Luke and how he felt with all of this are really good insights. The parallels and the history of the previous 7 movies bring about a Stark revelation about how Luke thinks, how he feels. Very good points.

But you know what? That certain PoV that you mention?

When Kylo Ren recounts the story of what happened when he was Luke's apprentice, it looks like Like wad going to actual kill him. When Luke recounts what actually happened later in the movie, he admits he thought about, then lost his nerve, and then Kylo attacks him.

Same sequence, two different PoVs.

Which really happened? Or did it actually happen even more differently than either told?

Now about Rey. I will just put this here.

If the universe was try to achieve balance and the Force spits out Anakin, who had the potential of a God but was perverted to the dark side, why wouldn't it spit out another Anakin, perhaps someone even more powerful than Anakin? Why not put out the one thing that could achieve balance, a force so powerful that no man can resist her when she wills it?

In all of the Jedi films, there has been a puppet master pulling the strings, subverting the plans of the Force to achieve Harmony and balance. This is the first time that the puppet master has been destroyed and the puppet has survived to the next film, supposedly to take the master's place.

Only Kylo is conflicted. He is not pure evil.

What if this is the end play of the Force, to finally achieve balance by having someone that he cannot hope to conflict with because of the conflict within him, while she is the actual epitome of the Force unleashed in a random person?

Yes, random meanderings on my part - but we have an entire movie to wait for, and are at a crossroads like we have never been at before. I am curious to see where this leads to.

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#10 johnlgalt

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 09:46 AM

Interesting read.

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#11 SamuriHL

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 09:52 AM

But Anakin was no one also....

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There is a great deal of evidence to suggest Anakin was created...either by a sith or by the force itself.  That's not the story with Rey....necessarily.  There is evidence to support the idea that the force created Rey in response to Kylo's uprising in the dark side to create balance, I'll grant you.  We shall see.  I'm not yet convinced she's not Kylo's twin sister and that Han and Leia are hiding a pretty dark secret about it.


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#12 SamuriHL

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 09:59 AM

Well, he is not happy because he really lived the franchise dream, and he wants to continue to be a party of it. He doesn't like being killed off, simple as that. Also, like in the original Star Wars, where there was inevitable attraction between Like and Leia, the palpable connection between the 2 could easily be taken as what Sam said, that they are twins. But the big difference here is that Like and Leia's mother died, and with the Father bring Vader, the twins were not only hidden from him but separated to have a better chance at grooming one of the two for the Jedi. But if Ben and Rey are also twins, that makes 0 sense, because both Han and Leia were alive, and even if Han had given up on Ben, as Leia struggled with that, being his mother, NEITHER would have given up on a daughter as well. And, if Rey was their daughter, even if Han wouldn't have recognized her, Leia would, or rather, hey latent powers in the Force would have. Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

Maybe.  My guess if they were to go that route (twins) is that something so terrible happened that they were separated at birth.  I'm talking like "hey you were going to have twins but um, one of them died" kind of horrifying twist.  Only she didn't die, she was taken from them.  To be raised on Jakku by a junk dealer.


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#13 SamuriHL

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 10:05 AM

You're points about Luke and how he felt with all of this are really good insights. The parallels and the history of the previous 7 movies bring about a Stark revelation about how Luke thinks, how he feels. Very good points. But you know what? That certain PoV that you mention? When Kylo Ren recounts the story of what happened when he was Luke's apprentice, it looks like Like wad going to actual kill him. When Luke recounts what actually happened later in the movie, he admits he thought about, then lost his nerve, and then Kylo attacks him. Same sequence, two different PoVs. Which really happened? Or did it actually happen even more differently than either told? Now about Rey. I will just put this here. If the universe was try to achieve balance and the Force spits out Anakin, who had the potential of a God but was perverted to the dark side, why wouldn't it spit out another Anakin, perhaps someone even more powerful than Anakin? Why not put out the one thing that could achieve balance, a force so powerful that no man can resist her when she wills it? In all of the Jedi films, there has been a puppet master pulling the strings, subverting the plans of the Force to achieve Harmony and balance. This is the first time that the puppet master has been destroyed and the puppet has survived to the next film, supposedly to take the master's place. Only Kylo is conflicted. He is not pure evil. What if this is the end play of the Force, to finally achieve balance by having someone that he cannot hope to conflict with because of the conflict within him, while she is the actual epitome of the Force unleashed in a random person? Yes, random meanderings on my part - but we have an entire movie to wait for, and are at a crossroads like we have never been at before. I am curious to see where this leads to. Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

It's something to consider.  I go back to Bendu from Rebels and what that means.  In that respect, Kylo represents the true balance to the force.  Neither good nor evil, just someone highly in tune with the will of the force.  Rey also had her moments with the dark side and Luke was horrified that she didn't even try to resist it.  But then, Luke is still even now old school Jedi mentality.  Even as he's resisting it, actively, he still was taught to be a Jedi.  In order for the Jedi to survive, there has to be a Sith to balance.  Light/Dark, Yin/Yang etc.  However, if that construct exists in one entity, such as Bendu, then balance can be achieved without the need for Jedi/Sith.  Rey has the potential.  Kylo has the potential.  It'll be interesting if they can balance the force within themselves or whether we'll get a more traditional ending where Rey kicks the s*** out of Kylo and becomes a Jedi....thus setting us up for another trilogy with those force kids we saw.  ;)  


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#14 SamuriHL

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 10:13 AM

Interesting read.

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Like Last Jedi that it's complaining about, that article takes too goddamn long to get to the point it was trying to make so I didn't bother reading about 3/4 of it.  Was it a problem?  No question.  That whole side mission could have been reduced to finding the guy, getting locked up with him, and all breaking out and jumping on a ship.  Did it serve to find a new force aware kid?  Sure, but, that would have been fairly easy to do without a 20 minute sub-plot that has no actual bearing on the story.  That's my only real complaint with this movie to be honest.  That side mission was WAY out of place and tried to be too clever for its own good.


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#15 johnlgalt

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 01:21 PM

Like Last Jedi that it's complaining about, that article takes too goddamn long to get to the point it was trying to make so I didn't bother reading about 3/4 of it. Was it a problem? No question. That whole side mission could have been reduced to finding the guy, getting locked up with him, and all breaking out and jumping on a ship. Did it serve to find a new force aware kid? Sure, but, that would have been fairly easy to do without a 20 minute sub-plot that has no actual bearing on the story. That's my only real complaint with this movie to be honest. That side mission was WAY out of place and tried to be too clever for its own good.

My guess is that the side mission shows its importance in the next movie and not just with the Force-aware kid either. I believe there is something extremely important, and I think it revolves around the comment that the hacker made about the arms dealer helping both sides.

(Edited)

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#16 SamuriHL

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 04:07 PM

My guess is that the side mission shows its importance in the next mission, and not just with the Force-aware life, either. I believe there is something extremely important, and I think it revolves around the comment that the hacker made about the arms dealer helping both sides.

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Yes, having just gotten back from a second viewing (HIGHLY HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!) I can say for certain that the balance that plays out in the force plays out in a larger context in arms deals and the like between the first order and the rebellion.  No question that's true.

 

Seeing this again you pick up on a lot.  I'm kind of curious on how Leia and Luke have their little moment if he's not actually there.  I believe Leia knew he wasn't...there's kind of a moment where she seems to acknowledge it.  The little dice was a nice touch with Kylo holding them and having them disappear.  I did catch the ring that snoke wore and that was neat.  

 

I absolutely love this movie.


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#17 comiskeybum

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:04 PM

I will be seeing it again at some point.  

 

I hope you're right about Rey's parents. It did seem like "they" wanted you to take that info and simply believe it and move on from it. Seems like there should be more there, for sure.

 

I for one hope they are NOT twins. Id like to see real attraction between the two, not brother sister $#!+ we've seen before.  


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#18 johnlgalt

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 06:43 PM



Yes, having just gotten back from a second viewing (HIGHLY HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!) I can say for certain that the balance that plays out in the force plays out in a larger context in arms deals and the like between the first order and the rebellion. No question that's true.

Seeing this again you pick up on a lot. I'm kind of curious on how Leia and Luke have their little moment if he's not actually there. I believe Leia knew he wasn't...there's kind of a moment where she seems to acknowledge it. The little dice was a nice touch with Kylo holding them and having them disappear. I did catch the ring that snoke wore and that was neat.

I absolutely love this movie.



I will definitely be setting it again as well, probably between Christmas and New Year's.

One of the links pointed out what you saw in Leia's reaction to Luke when he hands get the dice, which I noticed but didn't understand why I had noticed until later.


I will be seeing it again at some point.

I hope you're right about Rey's parents. It did seem like "they" wanted you to take that info and simply believe it and move on from it. Seems like there should be more there, for sure.

I for one hope they are NOT twins. Id like to see real attraction between the two, not brother sister $#!+ we've seen before.


I kinda hope she is a product of the Force itself as the final balancing act for the universe....

And I for one believe that are not related at all.

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#19 SamuriHL

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 07:38 PM

Yea, about that final balancing thing.  Sorry, but, there's 2 strikes against that theory.  First, it's now canon that Snoke is NOT a Sith.  This is a HUGE revelation because it means that Anakin did indeed fulfill the prophecy.  He destroyed his master and turned back to the light, thus ending the reign of the Sith.  This is important.  Second, the only way to balance the force is when the force users figure out the living force like Qui Gon did and what Bendu represents.  When you have a powerful Jedi, a powerful Sith (or dark Jedi as the case may be) rises to balance the force.  Vice versa.  This is why Luke wanted the Jedi to end.  There can be no balance when only one side exists.  Bendu represented the force.  Kylo and Rey both have the potential to represent the force.  However, they already f***ed up that potential by telling us there will be another trilogy.  This already tells you that they won't balance the force within a single person.  Kylo will go even darker in IX, Rey will become a Jedi and lead a new generation of Jedi where Luke failed.  That's my prediction in order to set up another trilogy.  They could absolutely have gone the direction I was referring to because of the potential for Kylo and Rey to go to the dark and light sides.  Maybe they could and Comiskey's theory that they'll have little KyRey babies will lead to a future generation.  LOL  But I doubt it.


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#20 johnlgalt

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 08:14 AM

Interestingly.

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