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[SPOILERS] The Last Dobbu Scay

Spoilers Last Jedi Star Wars

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#21 SamuriHL

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 08:37 AM

That is quite interesting indeed.  I like those little things like that.  Snoke's ring, files from Rogue One....gotta love it.  I so want the 3D blu-ray of Last Jedi badly.


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#22 johnlgalt

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 08:46 AM

That is quite interesting indeed. I like those little things like that. Snoke's ring, files from Rogue One....gotta love it. I so want the 3D blu-ray of Last Jedi badly.

Indeed. I want to peruse it almost frame by frame. I know there are more Easter eggs there.

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#23 SamuriHL

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 10:25 AM

Yea, I just want to see those lightsaber battles again.  Even if Luke wasn't really there, it was still a kick ass scene.


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#24 comiskeybum

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 12:53 PM

New Theory. And this might infer on some of what you were suggesting.  

 

Luke did not die of exhaustion due to Force projection.  He died because he WAS the balance in the force. Now that Kylo is firmly Dark Side and Rey has fully opposed his offer to join him and go light, Luke could not possibly maintain the balance, and when he showed up via force projection, it only egged Kylo on further, even further pushing him to the Dark Side.  

 

Luke was weakening during that whole scene, which is why he eventually gave up. "See ya around Kid."


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#25 johnlgalt

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:42 PM

Interesting theory.  We'll have to wait to see how it pans out, eh?



#26 SamuriHL

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 04:15 PM

Luke will be back as a force ghost I'm sure.  That's about it though.


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#27 johnlgalt

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 04:48 PM

Yeah, I figured the same thing.  If for no other reason, to provide comic relief and to harass Rey with poignant yet very whimsical anecdotes and to just plain bother Ben.

 

I wonder if a BenRey baby gets made somewhere in all this, that would be one massively powerful child....



#28 SamuriHL

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 06:13 PM

Well, Luke said "See ya around, kid" to Kylo, so, he knew.  Yoda had to chide him for the same problem Obi Wan had.....always looking to the future, never his mind on where he was...what he was doing.  hmmmmph.  LOL  So Luke probably knows what comes next.  

 

I'm not doing the whole Ben/Rey thing.  Ya'll missed the symbolism there didn't you?  Snoke opened their minds to the communication thing.  And that "door" was open even after Snoke lost his lunch (come on, that was hilarious).  HOWEVER, if you paid attention, Rey decided to "close the door" to that communication quite literally by shutting the ramp to the Falcon.  As I said, quite symbolic.  And honestly, having a relationship like that would be pretty damn dark for a Disney movie that's geared towards family.  Go rewatch Force Awakens and see the horrible things Kylo tried to do to her.  This one wasn't a whole lot better.  At best it's an abusive relationship.  Granted, if you really watch episodes 2 and 3 again with Anakin and Padme's relationship, it's also quite abusive bordering on sexual predatory so I guess it's not out of the question.  But seriously, they need to move beyond that kind of thing IMO.  No, I'm NOT a fan of this relationship theory at all.


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#29 johnlgalt

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 08:25 AM

I don't believe they are related for a number of reason, but saying BenRey just makes me giggle every time, so I had to say it lol.

 

Your analysis is spot on, and I do agree, I think Disney would normally shy away from such 'non-family-friendly' crap.

 

But, then again, they just bought Fox....



#30 SamuriHL

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 08:48 AM

Yea, and they're struggling with what to do about a rated R deadpool, so.... (It'll still be allowed, gee, thanks Disney).  In any case, I believe that there were definite hints throughout the movie for a relationship of some kind, but, I also firmly believe Kylo's decision at the end slammed the door shut on that happening.  Very akin to Anakin's (haha) decision to become Darth Vader and Padme ultimately rejecting that path.


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#31 Sabres032

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 09:38 AM

I finally saw the movie last night and really trying to digest everything. I know there was a lot of little things I missed that are confirmed in this thread. I doubt I will have a chance to see it again until it's released on Blu-ray/DVD which sucks.

Over all I thought it was a great, if not long, movie. I went into it thinking it was going to be an Empire Strikes Back kind of plot, which deep down it was. The main characters in different parts of the universe doing different things but, the presentation was totally different.

I'm glad they didn't reveal Rey's lineage in this movie. Keeps the fans theorizing and the excitement for the next movie at a high level. Yo do so otherwise would have cheapened the whole story line and franchise. I kind of like the idea of her actually being a nobody who grows to become somenoe very special. It happens a lot in real life so why not in the fantasy world? Not everyone needs to come from nobility or special lineage to achieve great things. Actually the original and prequels do just that. Anikins transformation from slave to Jedi to Sith Lord. Keeping this theme going with Rey has more potential going forward in the new Star Wars universe.

I was very surprised they did not kill off Leia since Carrie Fisher had passed away. The perfect moment to do that was the scene of the bridge of the command ship being destroyed. Sure keep the glimpse of he being strong in the force, surviving the vacuum of space but they should have kept her in a coma and eventually dying. That would have given the character of Holdo time to grow and develop. But no, let's kill her and keep Leia, so much for keeping the focus on the new characters.

Killing off Luke, as much as you can kill of a Jedi, had to happen. The title of the movie even suggests it would happen. I mentioned this to my wife on the way to the theater and she didn't believe me. Once, Luke vanished she punched my arm and said "Damn you". How could I be wrong when the writing team confirmed long ago the focus of the trilogy is the new characters. Rey, not Luke is the last Jedi. This also plays into, Leia's character eating to die n this episode. Keeping her alive will be a major distraction for Ep IX.

I still have no opinions, yet regarding the Kylo/Rey relationship. I really hope they keep it from developing into a sexual relationship. Their characters NEED to be intertwined but not on a love relationship level. Been there, done that in original and prequels. I think this movie did show a glimpse of this with them working together to battle the guards then, going right back to rivals. Let the love story have it's side bar with Finn and Rose. Keep the Kylo/Rey story a love-hate relationship.

All in all though, I loved this movie and can not wait for Ep IX and what lies beyond.
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#32 SamuriHL

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 09:55 AM

Leia didn't need to die in this one and I'm glad she didn't.  That scene near the end when Luke "shows up" is one of the ones you missed (by design).  When he hands her the dice, she knew he wasn't really there.  When you see it again, you'll understand the importance of keeping her in the story...at least for now.  Obviously this opens up a huge problem for episode IX, but, the leading theory is they'll time jump a few years and potentially start out with Leia's funeral.

 

I want to be clear on one thing.  Rey is (currently) no Jedi.  Much like Luke in Empire, she's not there yet.  Is she powerful?  Without question.  Did she get training?  More or less.  The path to becoming a Jedi is to overcome a personal obstacle.  Luke having to face Vader, as an example.  But first she's going to have to learn to create a lightsaber.  This is something the Jedi learn to do at varying ages depending on their skill and maturity with the force.  The thing about lightsabers is they aren't just..."assembled".  The kyber crystal is considered a living part of the force that chooses the Jedi as much as the Jedi chooses it.  She still has a kyber crystal from Anakin/Luke's lightsaber and that one chose her.  (Side discussion....where the f*** is Luke's green lightsaber?  He did NOT have it on ach'too and the last time we did see it is when he was confronting Ben in that fateful decision.  Was it lost during that battle?)  It takes someone with a lot of skill to create a lightsaber.  Luke did it in RotJ and I absolutely love that deleted scene on the blu-ray.  The kyber crystal he used was from Qui Gon Jinn's lightsaber.  AWESOME!  Once she builds a new lightsaber she can be considered the level of padawan even though she no longer has a master.  But the only thing left after that for her to become a Jedi is to go through her personal trial.  The obvious is for her to face Kylo.  But I'm not entirely sure that's it.  Rian left the door open for Abrams to go down a different path.  Rian said he wanted Rey to come from no one so she could develop her own story.  But what if that's her trial?  To learn who she really is, and still overcome that legacy to go down her own path and be her own person?  To later find out "sure, I'm a Skywalker, but, I don't care, this is who I am."  That would be a much bigger conflict for her to overcome than simply taking on Kylo and beating him IMO.


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#33 LDubs

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 02:10 PM

Ok I did not like this movie at all. I thought it was very disneyfied, too comedic and too campy. Not since episode 1 were there so many weird little creatures for no reason. The seal-penguin birds? The crystal wolves? The weird sea cow and caretakers at Jedi island?

The mission to find the codebreaker was ridiculous. They don't get what they came for, but they saved the enslaved animals but not the enslaved kids.

The rebel ship hits the first order ship at hyperspace and everyone dies except Finn and Rose?

Leia saves herself after being blown out to space and then has zero role for the rest of movie except at the end?

Poe. He goes from commander to captain to mutineer to oopsie to commander again?

Kylo with his shirt off? Why?

How did rose get the amulet from her sister, who was killed in the suicide mission at the beginning? And how does she go from engineer to knowing how to fly a landspeeder, and what was with the kiss with Finn at the end ?

Luke dies because he expended a lot of energy? Ren gives him back his lightsaber and he throws it over his shoulder...? And then goes fishing? Knows she's super powerful but won't train her besides giving her stupid advice?

Overall I think this was pretty sloppy screen writing.

There were some good parts as others have pointed out but man, this one was pretty terrible in my opinion.

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#34 johnlgalt

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 02:31 PM

Ok I did not like this movie at all. I thought it was very disneyfied, too comedic and too campy. Not since episode 1 were there so many weird little creatures for no reason. The seal-penguin birds? The crystal wolves? The weird sea cow and caretakers at Jedi island?

The mission to find the codebreaker was ridiculous. They don't get what they came for, but they saved the enslaved animals but not the enslaved kids.

The rebel ship hits the first order ship at hyperspace and everyone dies except Finn and Rose?

Leia saves herself after being blown out to space and then has zero role for the rest of movie except at the end?

Poe. He goes from commander to captain to mutineer to oopsie to commander again?

Kylo with his shirt off? Why?

How did rose get the amulet from her sister, who was killed in the suicide mission at the beginning? And how does she go from engineer to knowing how to fly a landspeeder, and what was with the kiss with Finn at the end ?

Luke dies because he expended a lot of energy? Ren gives him back his lightsaber and he throws it over his shoulder...? And then goes fishing? Knows she's super powerful but won't train her besides giving her stupid advice?

Overall I think this was pretty sloppy screen writing.

There were some good parts as others have pointed out but man, this one was pretty terrible in my opinion.

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Disneyfied, yes.  Penguin creatures are porgs, btw.  But, you cannot expect there not to be other creatures on other worlds.  Some, yes, but if a world is colonized / commandeered because it is habitable to humans, or any of the other races in the Star Wars universe, you'd expect there to be native flora and fauna.

 

Codebreaker - agreed.

 

The Hyperspace hit - yeah, wondered about that myself.

 

Leia - well, director said this was about the new gen of characters, so it's understandable that the older characters got little screen time.

 

Poe - uh, he can't make up his mind if he is a rebel without a cause or just a rebel without a clue.

 

Kylo shirtless - well, eye candy for female viewers, plus to show very poignantly that Rey is attracted to him.

 

I believe that Rose has the other half of the amulet her sister had.  I'll have to go back and watch it again, but IIRC, I thought the same thing when I saw it and then thought it was one of those split medallions that siblings and / or best friends get, each getting a half.

 

Luke's desire to not train Rey comes from the very fact that he believes that training more Jedi is only going to lead to more Jedi hubris (as Sam put it) that inevitably leads to the dark side rising again and again.  Listen to his dialog - he firmly believes he is the last Jedi and just as firmly believes that that is the best way for things to proceed.

 

As for the sloppy writing and whatnot, well I liken this part 2 of a sequel to The Matrix Reload, which also seemed like a bunch of BS after the original, but was actually very integral to tying in to the final part of the trilogy.  Hands down, TMR was the worst of the 3 movies, and equally hands down, its place was as a bridge from the first to the third.

 

In the same manner, this one was campy, cheesy, a very kids movie, and even for tweens, but I have faith that it is going ot be integral to Episode IX.



#35 SamuriHL

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 02:39 PM

Wow, alrighty, let's take them one at a time I guess.  LOL

 

The porgs are explained by the fact that the island they literally used to film the Ach'to scenes was crawling with puffins.  So instead of digitally erasing them, which is a pain in the ass, Rian Johnson decided to turn them all into porgs.  Annoying?  Perhaps, but, interesting I guess.  The crystal wolves have a history in Rebels on Lothal.  Couldn't tell you about the caretakers.  Thought they were humorous myself.

 

You missed the subtly of how that useless mission played out in the larger picture.  You're right, that mission was long, tedious, and ultimately pointless.  However, Rose giving her rebel ring to one of the kids will have HUGE ramifications in the future.  As you learn at the end, that kid is force sensitive.  Back in the old days, the Jedi would have sensed him and taken him to be trained as a Jedi.  Now with Rey leading the new order, who knows how it'll play out but that was highly important in the theme of what Rian was going for.....that anyone from any background can grow into a hero.

 

Um, I'm not sure how you got that only Rose and Finn survived, but, that's totally untrue.  Rey, Kylo, General Hux, Phasma (I maintain she survived the fall), and all those crew that show up on the new rebel planet clearly survived.  It split the ship in half and a lot of people did die, but, quite a few survived it.  

 

Leia;s near death experience caused her latent force abilities to shine.  I thought that was a very powerful scene.  She's always been able to sense things happening elsewhere (just watched RotJ again and it's quite clear when she tells Han that Luke's fine that it was the force....plus when Han dies she felt it, etc), but, this was the first time we've seen her directly use the force.  Being blown out into space is probably bad for your health, so I hear, so she would indeed need some recovery time which allowed them to poorly develop the admiral's character.  I'm not a huge fan of Laura Dern's character...I thought she was good with what they gave her to work with but it felt a little one dimensional to me.  But the theory was to allow her to develop her story a bit while Leia was recovering.

 

Not a fan of what they did to Poe in this one.  Not even a little bit.

 

Yea, that whole sexual tension thing going on between Kylo and Rey annoyed the hell out of me, too.  I've tried to explain it away as they're twins but that seems less and less likely the more I read.  In any case, glad she shut the door on that (literally) whole nonsense.

 

She didn't get the amulet from her sister.  They both had one.  Can't explain the quick landspeeder piloting skills, but, as a rebel, you clearly have to learn some s*** on the fly.  Plus, you know, her sister was a pilot so she probably picked up a couple things from her.  

 

I found that scene where Luke tosses the lightsaber to be absolutely hilarious.  We've waited 2 years since Force Awakens where she hands it to him and......"go away".  Perfect!  The problem is one of expectations.  The audience expected some big "how did you get this?  who are you?  omgz ponies" kind of thing.  That expectation is the problem.  Rian turned this movie into something that the fans didn't expect, and that's what makes it good.  Everyone wanted Luke to be this bad ass Obi-Wan character ready to take on training Rey to beat the bad evil Snoke and his apprentice Kylo.  And that's not what you got.  If you had, the likelihood is the conversation we'd be having right now is "omg saw all that in Empire Strikes Back.".  Yup, that's true.  What we saw here?  Very different.  And I can tell you that on second viewing a LOT of stuff you miss the first time around becomes evident.  All the people that had set expectations and didn't get them met feel the way you do.  But in order for Star Wars to grow and not just tell the same story with different characters, those characters need to be allowed to develop outside the expectations that have been set.  It's a difficult balance to master.  Rian did an admirable job IMO.  Was this one perfect?  Oh hell no.  Will it survive the test of time?  I believe it will and once people get over the fact that it didn't meet their expectations, and they go watch it with a fresh set of eyes, they may see how much room we now have to grow.


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#36 comiskeybum

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:05 PM

Snoke was force projecting into the throne room. He's not dead. He is Plageis.

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#37 SamuriHL

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:21 PM

Except he's not.  I have the official book now that says he's not a sith which is canon.  Sooooo, Snoke was pretty much nobody.  Obviously a Vader fan-boy given the obsidian ring.  There were rumors that he may have come from Vader's castle originally.  Personally, I'm sticking with my theory that he was one of Maz Kanata's former husbands.  :D


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#38 LDubs

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 08:22 AM

Wow, alrighty, let's take them one at a time I guess.  LOL

 

The porgs are explained by the fact that the island they literally used to film the Ach'to scenes was crawling with puffins.  So instead of digitally erasing them, which is a pain in the rear end, Rian Johnson decided to turn them all into porgs.  Annoying?  Perhaps, but, interesting I guess.  The crystal wolves have a history in Rebels on Lothal.  Couldn't tell you about the caretakers.  Thought they were humorous myself.

 

ah.  Porgs.  I get it now

 

You missed the subtly of how that useless mission played out in the larger picture.  You're right, that mission was long, tedious, and ultimately pointless.  However, Rose giving her rebel ring to one of the kids will have HUGE ramifications in the future.  As you learn at the end, that kid is force sensitive.  Back in the old days, the Jedi would have sensed him and taken him to be trained as a Jedi.  Now with Rey leading the new order, who knows how it'll play out but that was highly important in the theme of what Rian was going for.....that anyone from any background can grow into a hero.

 

I didn't miss that - and it was cool at the end with the kid who is force-aware.  But ultimately my point was about the "mission" - could have been done much better and quicker

 

Um, I'm not sure how you got that only Rose and Finn survived, but, that's totally untrue.  Rey, Kylo, General Hux, Phasma (I maintain she survived the fall), and all those crew that show up on the new rebel planet clearly survived.  It split the ship in half and a lot of people did die, but, quite a few survived it.  

 
ok, so everyone on one half of the ship dies except for Finn and Rose?
 

Leia;s near death experience caused her latent force abilities to shine.  I thought that was a very powerful scene.  She's always been able to sense things happening elsewhere (just watched RotJ again and it's quite clear when she tells Han that Luke's fine that it was the force....plus when Han dies she felt it, etc), but, this was the first time we've seen her directly use the force.  Being blown out into space is probably bad for your health, so I hear, so she would indeed need some recovery time which allowed them to poorly develop the admiral's character.  I'm not a huge fan of Laura Dern's character...I thought she was good with what they gave her to work with but it felt a little one dimensional to me.  But the theory was to allow her to develop her story a bit while Leia was recovering.

 

I get that - my point was even after she recovered, with the exception of the scene at the end with the dice from the Falcon, she was no longer in charge, as General??!?!?  I'm talking about the scene at the end where Poe is leading everyone out the back of the mine and Leia says "you heard him, GO"..?

 

Not a fan of what they did to Poe in this one.  Not even a little bit.

 

Yea, that whole sexual tension thing going on between Kylo and Rey annoyed the hell out of me, too.  I've tried to explain it away as they're twins but that seems less and less likely the more I read.  In any case, glad she shut the door on that (literally) whole nonsense.

 

She didn't get the amulet from her sister.  They both had one.  Can't explain the quick landspeeder piloting skills, but, as a rebel, you clearly have to learn some s*** on the fly.  Plus, you know, her sister was a pilot so she probably picked up a couple things from her.  

 

I found that scene where Luke tosses the lightsaber to be absolutely hilarious.  We've waited 2 years since Force Awakens where she hands it to him and......"go away".  Perfect!  The problem is one of expectations.  The audience expected some big "how did you get this?  who are you?  omgz ponies" kind of thing.  That expectation is the problem.  Rian turned this movie into something that the fans didn't expect, and that's what makes it good.  Everyone wanted Luke to be this bad rear end Obi-Wan character ready to take on training Rey to beat the bad evil Snoke and his apprentice Kylo.  And that's not what you got.  If you had, the likelihood is the conversation we'd be having right now is "omg saw all that in Empire Strikes Back.".  Yup, that's true.  What we saw here?  Very different.  And I can tell you that on second viewing a LOT of stuff you miss the first time around becomes evident.  All the people that had set expectations and didn't get them met feel the way you do.  But in order for Star Wars to grow and not just tell the same story with different characters, those characters need to be allowed to develop outside the expectations that have been set.  It's a difficult balance to master.  Rian did an admirable job IMO.  Was this one perfect?  Oh hell no.  Will it survive the test of time?  I believe it will and once people get over the fact that it didn't meet their expectations, and they go watch it with a fresh set of eyes, they may see how much room we now have to grow.

 

ok I need to see it again, but I still maintain that it was too campy, trying too hard to be a comedy/Disney movie, and not holding as true as it should have been.  


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#39 SamuriHL

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 10:35 AM

Ya, porgs.  Kind of a running inside joke.

 

We all think the mission was pointless and too long.  That's a huge common complaint and it's completely valid.  But introducing us to other force aware people was a good thing.  So, in the end, yea, it was too long, but, at least we get broom kid.

 

You keep saying Rose and Finn as though they were the only ones who lived.  I think you need to see it again cause that's simply not the case.  The ship got split in half and quite a few people survived.  Including bb8.

 

I think you may have missed some important dialog with Leia and Poe at the beginning when she demoted him.  She very clearly stated that there was no leader on that mission that blew up the dreadnaught and that many people died as a result.  At the end, she saw Poe taking charge and leading and didn't want to squash that initiative.  Because he was finally "getting it".  Was Leia ultimately still in charge?  Of course.  But that scene was important for Poe's development.  After all, this story is about new characters, not old.  And part of being a good leader is knowing when to step back and let those you command do what they need to do.

 

What does "not holding as true as it should have been" mean?  This goes back to what I said about expectations and rehashing the old movies.  Force Awakens really had to "follow the script" in order to establish new characters yet have that same "feel" to it.  If Last Jedi "followed the script" and became just another version of Empire Strikes Back, the conversation would be "how boring, we've already done that, can't they come up with anything new."  This movie defied audience expectations and the people who had the biggest expectations of how they believed the story was going to play out are the ones who are most disappointed.  It's fine for you not to like it.  Hell, I have some pretty big issues with it myself.  I would have thought Finn would be used better than a side mission and faux love story.  It was clear to a lot of us that he was force sensitive from what we saw in Force Awakens.  Snoke was a useless character that didn't bring much more than a punching bag for Kylo and Rey.  I see where Rian went with Luke's character, but, like Mark I'm not super thrilled with it, either.  After 30 years of being a Jedi, Luke having a moment of weakness where he almost killed his nephew to stop him from becoming the next Darth Vader is quite the stretch.  Luke was the most powerful force user at that point (that we know of).  Yoda kept telling the Skywalkers that fear leads to the dark side.  So really, after 30 years of being a Jedi Luke allows a fleeting moment of fear to impact his decision making?  Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, Luke.  We can sit here and criticize that decision Rian made to have Luke go down that path and ultimately fail as a Jedi, but, he did not do that in a vacuum.  He consulted Lucas quite a bit and was ultimately given the green light on that choice.  Does it suck?  Yea, I have a hard time with it.  But that's the story as it unfolds.  We're not going to like every aspect of every part of a trilogy.  Overall, I enjoyed the hell out of Last Jedi and can't wait to own it so I can watch it a dozen more times.


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#40 LDubs

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 11:22 AM

I'm with you. It's just it left something to be desired in my mind. Not sure what or how better to describe it more than it just didn't seem as much as a star wars movie and more like a Disney comedy. Like it was trying too hard in too many places to make silly jokes.

I need to see it again.

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