117 replies to this topic

[chefed24]

Just throwing my two cents in.

1) You bought the phone for whatever price $200 $300 etc....., then come to this sight and look to developers you don't know to modify said $$$ phone.

2) Every post clearly states DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!!

3)Phone's broke blame someone for not testing enough.

4) Expect an apology

Really that isn't how this $#!+ work, it's a community that pulls together and works to get better devices and fix ones that have problems. Hey if you feel better that you vented good for you.

This community consists of people working unpaid for long hours ( they do it for fun and glory don't let them fool you). Then there's those who donate to help development. And lastly the leeches who come around no donation and grab leaks and developers time to better there device. Given all this the community still thrives.

So take your brick to big red and get a new stock phone (while the devs work hard to fix this problem)

Lastly know the risk, access the risk and go forward. I have been stock rooted for over three months now waiting patiently for the final ICS to be dropped by Big Red then I may go play . That's just me and how I have handled the risk.

Thanks again to the great developers and your hard work I will donate when I can, flash when I want and hold no one but myself accountable. It was my financial investment in the phone and so is the modification of my phone you give me great options and support for pennies on the dollar compared to big red and motto.

[chefed24]

So those with bricked phones demanding apologies now have working phones? Oh the irony, developers do what developers do so you can play. How bout a little cheese to go with that whine!!!

[garywojdan81]

So those with bricked phones demanding apologies now have working phones? Oh the irony, developers do what developers do so you can play. How bout a little cheese to go with that whine!!!

+100

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[shizumie]

2 things
1 i flashed this soon, soon after it was announced. I was cruising the forum and posting in it about someones post being removed. By the time i was flashed, restored, up and running on. 84, it was already being posted that people where soft bricking trying to go back. (Why they where going back..... good question... if you followed op you would be on. 84 with root and no probs). Like P3 said if your screwed its from trying to go back for whatever reason. Not flashing the leak.
Anyway my point being that by the time i was fully up and on the leak it was already being made known that people where having serious problems from trying fastboot back. Yet people keep on flashing. Just a little bit after this it was widely known that it was a one way street, yet people keep flashing. By now the files are pulled and people are finding alternate places and ways to get the file and still keep flashing. Now there are multiple threads about help im screwed by. 84. And people keep flashing. My point is this id wager over half of the ones ranting about devs owning up, are ones that had ample opportunity to know about the repercussions and said, nahh not me, and keep on flashing.
Yes a mistake was made, and it was posted as being fastbootable, but it was also posted as AT YOUR OWN RISK.
We should all know the risks involved with this. If not find another site, and another hobby.

2 if you must flame someone, flame me for this post, or better yet tell yourselves i posted the leak and gave my personal guarentee it was safe. That way the devs that will eventually save all our butts can focus on a fix and not this garbage.

Thanks for your time and love. Let the crap storm begin

I am fear my blade!

[tucstwo]

I will continue to work on a fix. But I'm done posting, WHY, because I don't deserve the way, my team or me has been treated.

This is the only part of your post that is wrong. You don't agree with how you or your team has been treated? Seriously? Why does anyone think that because this stuff is free that it makes it ok to be grossly negligent? If my hobby was making fireworks and I decided to give you a few to take home for 4th of July, prototypes for free no less! Maybe these particuliar fireworks you really like that way they looked so I say, "Here, take a few for free". Then you go home blow your face off. Aren't I at least half responsible for your missing face? Oh, well those were free fireworks, and I tested them before I gave them to you. Next time, pay for them and though you'll still be faceless, only then will I have to take some responsibility for what happened. /analogy

Why do you miss the point that the reason people are pissed off is because of the way your team has handled it? It's not about apologies or responsibility it's about accountability. There's one way to make the hate to stop. That's to go to the front page of this website and post up an article explaining to everyone out there exactly what happened, why it happened and what's being done to fix it so that the ENTIRE community (not just the people reading this thread) understand what the situation really is. This should take 10 minutes MAX. Being a leader is about accountability. If you're not a leader then why be an Admin? If you can't PUBLICLY get up on the front page in front of this entire forum and explain what happened, why it happened, how others can avoid it and what everyone's doing to fix it, then why go on as admin? Admin is short for administrator, manager, director, leader. This is something that the management should do so the entire community understands what's going on. Transparency for the lack of a better word. Why do you think people are saying "This forum is going to hell, etc?" Because people deserve answers, they don't want to hear "It happened because you flashed it, you didn't read the disclaimer, blah blah blah" That's a cop-out. The OP, the forum and the end user are equally at fault for what's happened in this specific case. It's not true all the time. If you can't do that, then another Admin should. It's only fair to the people who trusted and looked up to the management of this forum and now have paperweights, regardless of why or how or who did it or who's fault it is that they ended up that way.

[tucstwo]

2 things
1 i flashed this soon, soon after it was announced. I was cruising the forum and posting in it about someones post being removed. By the time i was flashed, restored, up and running on. 84, it was already being posted that people where soft bricking trying to go back. (Why they where going back..... good question... if you followed op you would be on. 84 with root and no probs). Like P3 said if your screwed its from trying to go back for whatever reason. Not flashing the leak.
Anyway my point being that by the time i was fully up and on the leak it was already being made known that people where having serious problems from trying fastboot back. Yet people keep on flashing. Just a little bit after this it was widely known that it was a one way street, yet people keep flashing. By now the files are pulled and people are finding alternate places and ways to get the file and still keep flashing. Now there are multiple threads about help im screwed by. 84. And people keep flashing. My point is this id wager over half of the ones ranting about devs owning up, are ones that had ample opportunity to know about the repercussions and said, nahh not me, and keep on flashing.
Yes a mistake was made, and it was posted as being fastbootable, but it was also posted as AT YOUR OWN RISK.
We should all know the risks involved with this. If not find another site, and another hobby.

2 if you must flame someone, flame me for this post, or better yet tell yourselves i posted the leak and gave my personal guarentee it was safe. That way the devs that will eventually save all our butts can focus on a fix and not this garbage.

Thanks for your time and love. Let the crap storm begin

I am fear my blade!

You're totally right about the 'tards who were asking about flashing and digging for files when that thread was beyond page 12. I, like you flashed it when it was still on page 1. Thank GOD I was able to keep root because I would have been half way back to RSD by the time the first person came out and said "RSD is broke". I do normally wait until a few people have flashed to ensure everything is working, but the OP had said he and another couple people had been running it since the morning before.

[benefit14snake]

This is the only part of your post that is wrong. You don't agree with how you or your team has been treated? Seriously? Why does anyone think that because this stuff is free that it makes it ok to be grossly negligent? If my hobby was making fireworks and I decided to give you a few to take home for 4th of July, prototypes for free no less! Maybe these particuliar fireworks you really like that way they looked so I say, "Here, take a few for free". Then you go home blow your face off. Aren't I at least half responsible for your missing face? Oh, well those were free fireworks, and I tested them before I gave them to you. Next time, pay for them and though you'll still be faceless, only then will I have to take some responsibility for what happened. /analogy

Why do you miss the point that the reason people are pissed off is because of the way your team has handled it? It's not about apologies or responsibility it's about accountability. There's one way to make the hate to stop. That's to go to the front page of this website and post up an article explaining to everyone out there exactly what happened, why it happened and what's being done to fix it so that the ENTIRE community (not just the people reading this thread) understand what the situation really is. This should take 10 minutes MAX. Being a leader is about accountability. If you're not a leader then why be an Admin? If you can't PUBLICLY get up on the front page in front of this entire forum and explain what happened, why it happened, how others can avoid it and what everyone's doing to fix it, then why go on as admin? Admin is short for administrator, manager, director, leader. This is something that the management should do so the entire community understands what's going on. Transparency for the lack of a better word. Why do you think people are saying "This forum is going to hell, etc?" Because people deserve answers, they don't want to hear "It happened because you flashed it, you didn't read the disclaimer, blah blah blah" That's a cop-out. The OP, the forum and the end user are equally at fault for what's happened in this specific case. It's not true all the time. If you can't do that, then another Admin should. It's only fair to the people who trusted and looked up to the management of this forum and now have paperweights, regardless of why or how or who did it or who's fault it is that they ended up that way.

Nicely said my friend. +1000.

Sent from my Axiom MAXX!!

[chefed24]

This is the only part of your post that is wrong. You don't agree with how you or your team has been treated? Seriously? Why does anyone think that because this stuff is free that it makes it ok to be grossly negligent? If my hobby was making fireworks and I decided to give you a few to take home for 4th of July, prototypes for free no less! Maybe these particuliar fireworks you really like that way they looked so I say, "Here, take a few for free". Then you go home blow your face off. Aren't I at least half responsible for your missing face? Oh, well those were free fireworks, and I tested them before I gave them to you. Next time, pay for them and though you'll still be faceless, only then will I have to take some responsibility for what happened. /analogy

Why do you miss the point that the reason people are pissed off is because of the way your team has handled it? It's not about apologies or responsibility it's about accountability. There's one way to make the hate to stop. That's to go to the front page of this website and post up an article explaining to everyone out there exactly what happened, why it happened and what's being done to fix it so that the ENTIRE community (not just the people reading this thread) understand what the situation really is. This should take 10 minutes MAX. Being a leader is about accountability. If you're not a leader then why be an Admin? If you can't PUBLICLY get up on the front page in front of this entire forum and explain what happened, why it happened, how others can avoid it and what everyone's doing to fix it, then why go on as admin? Admin is short for administrator, manager, director, leader. This is something that the management should do so the entire community understands what's going on. Transparency for the lack of a better word. Why do you think people are saying "This forum is going to hell, etc?" Because people deserve answers, they don't want to hear "It happened because you flashed it, you didn't read the disclaimer, blah blah blah" That's a cop-out. The OP, the forum and the end user are equally at fault for what's happened in this specific case. It's not true all the time. If you can't do that, then another Admin should. It's only fair to the people who trusted and looked up to the management of this forum and now have paperweights, regardless of why or how or who did it or who's fault it is that they ended up that way.

So your in the habit of buying fireworks that are homemade from someone who is not a professional nor a dealer then blow your face up and want to say it's their fault for playing around and making them at home. How stupid does that sound have some of your own accountability this is not a group of professionals this is not their job they clearly state do so at your own risk. Get over it already man up and realize your not entitled to $#!+! Yeah I'd be pissed if my phone got bricked but the end of the day I did it I pulled the files I loaded them not any one else. Just because it worked for them doesn't mean it will work for me and just because they told me everything would be fine doesn't mean it will be fine.

[EmericanX]

OK people! Let's shut it down.... I think everyone's opinions are heard! There's always going to be someone that doesn't fully agree with your point of view. Which ever side of the fence you're on. Please! Let's just move on!!!!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[benefit14snake]

So your in the habit of buying fireworks that are homemade from someone who is not a professional nor a dealer then blow your face up and want to say it's their fault for playing around and making them at home. How stupid does that sound have some of your own accountability this is not a group of professionals this is not their job they clearly state do so at your own risk. Get over it already man up and realize your not entitled to $#!+! Yeah I'd be pissed if my phone got bricked but the end of the day I did it I pulled the files I loaded them not any one else. Just because it worked for them doesn't mean it will work for me and just because they told me everything would be fine doesn't mean it will be fine.

Funny thing is... the "fireworks" in this situation are NOT in fact made at home. They are made by motorola so that was a silly comparison now wasn't it?

Sent from my Axiom MAXX!!

[benefit14snake]

There is clearly two trains of thought process on this issue and neither one is going to convince the other they are right.
Sent from my Axiom MAXX!!

[SoLongSidekick]

There is clearly two trains of thought process on this issue and neither one is going to convince the other they are right.
Sent from my Axiom MAXX!!

+1

This thread will be locked unless everyone starts being civil to one another.

[chefed24]

Funny thing is... the "fireworks" in this situation are NOT in fact made at home. They are made by motorola so that was a silly comparison now wasn't it?

Sent from my Axiom MAXX!!

Said fireworks were not released to the public still being built. So not really relevant not so silly.

My point is get off the developers rear end or move on!

[littlewing745]

Actually, you're the very reason I just wrote a long post.

First of all - and I hate to nitpick - but you may want to double-check the definition of "accountability." You are claiming out of one side of your mouth that no one cares about apologies or responsibility, but rather accountability. Accountability - as someone in a position to know - is precisely about who is worthy of blame and liability. That's pretty much the verbatim definition, so I'm not sure if you meant something else.

In either case, your fireworks analogy NAILS why they aren't accountable. If someone were to give you free fireworks, they actually aren't accountable for you blowing your face off. There's no legally binding contract, for starters. Secondly,if they didn't knowingly give you faulty fireworks - and, indeed, their same fireworks seem to be operating fine at the time they gave them to you - there's still no liability. This is a perfect example of why the old adage on this site - "participate at your own risk" - relieves them of "accountability." If they could, in fact, be held accountable, then rooting your phone wouldn't void your warranty. I hate being a technical jerk about it, but it's time someone set you straight on that.

It sounds to me that you're looking at this from an ethical standpoint. You want someone to make an apology and own up for emotional purposes. Because of that, you keep placing admins in the role of "leaders." My friend, you surely must know that simply because one is a dev, maintains the site and shares his/her work with you, that doesn't mean they are a "leader." I believe you mentioned being a military man on another post, so I'll put it this way: no offense to the devs, but there isn't exactly an "organized structure" to becoming a dev. Some are software engineers. Some are programmers. Some are freaking gardeners doing this as a hobby. We're not paying for a service here.

So, in effect...no, they don't owe us anything. It's not placing them on a pedestal to be realistic about the relationship. If they pack it up and leave tomorrow - can you develop a ROM? A theme? Can you unlock a bootloader? What would be on your Razr right now if they didn't exist? Stock? More immediately important, can you fix these bricked phones? The only apology they need to give is a fix, and frankly, they don't owe anyone that, either.

This is the only part of your post that is wrong. You don't agree with how you or your team has been treated? Seriously? Why does anyone think that because this stuff is free that it makes it ok to be grossly negligent? If my hobby was making fireworks and I decided to give you a few to take home for 4th of July, prototypes for free no less! Maybe these particuliar fireworks you really like that way they looked so I say, "Here, take a few for free". Then you go home blow your face off. Aren't I at least half responsible for your missing face? Oh, well those were free fireworks, and I tested them before I gave them to you. Next time, pay for them and though you'll still be faceless, only then will I have to take some responsibility for what happened. /analogy

Why do you miss the point that the reason people are pissed off is because of the way your team has handled it? It's not about apologies or responsibility it's about accountability. There's one way to make the hate to stop. That's to go to the front page of this website and post up an article explaining to everyone out there exactly what happened, why it happened and what's being done to fix it so that the ENTIRE community (not just the people reading this thread) understand what the situation really is. This should take 10 minutes MAX. Being a leader is about accountability. If you're not a leader then why be an Admin? If you can't PUBLICLY get up on the front page in front of this entire forum and explain what happened, why it happened, how others can avoid it and what everyone's doing to fix it, then why go on as admin? Admin is short for administrator, manager, director, leader. This is something that the management should do so the entire community understands what's going on. Transparency for the lack of a better word. Why do you think people are saying "This forum is going to hell, etc?" Because people deserve answers, they don't want to hear "It happened because you flashed it, you didn't read the disclaimer, blah blah blah" That's a cop-out. The OP, the forum and the end user are equally at fault for what's happened in this specific case. It's not true all the time. If you can't do that, then another Admin should. It's only fair to the people who trusted and looked up to the management of this forum and now have paperweights, regardless of why or how or who did it or who's fault it is that they ended up that way.

[(TSON)]

Not trying to rekindle a fight, I'm going to lay both grounds out and hopefully we can reach a common ground here.

Let me start by upfront saying I think that the sides that are being played are BOTH wrong. However, I especially do not agree with the positions that the site's staff are taking. I respect every developer here and every cheese-caker (seriously? censored?) and every poster and every thread posted, but this is some bull.

On the part of the staff - you simply cannot say "well, you took that chance when you flashed the leak. this is your fault." It's not just our fault. This is a huge disaster for everyone. It is VERY detrimental not only to the community but to the site's reputation. To make a thread with two statements and then hide behind one of them to save your asses looks really bad in all honesty. The OP clearly said "this IS fastbootable" and it also said "DroidRZR is not responsible for any damage done to your device". I've read too many posts by staff members that do this - you CANNOT hide behind the latter and pretend like the first statement never happened - it's a lie, accidental or not, plastered on a stickied news thread that's been read thousands of times before being edited. It's misleading. Even if you disagree - I think a bit of humoring would go a long way here. A simple statement saying "we apologize for misleading, it was not done purposely, or with foul intentions," would calm the storm a lot. I understand covering for arcane because he's a bud - but it's not even arcane's fault. It is the fault of the people that told him it was fastbootable when it was not and/or the lack of further testing.

And as for the other side of the argument - realize that this is not any one person's fault. It is your fault for jumping into this hastily, it is the testers' faults for not testing RSD more intensively, it is Moto's fault for screwing us over. Don't get mad at arcane - he's just the messenger. Don't get mad at any one person. Realize that the people who "got you into this," that you're pointing fingers at, are the only people who can get you out. Is it really in your best interest to continue pointing fingers days and days after the fact? I understand your pain, I am one of you, but this is ridiculous. We don't need a $#!+storm on top of the mess we're already in. Work with the devs, test things for them, cheer them on, start a pot... Do something beneficial instead of wasting your time and making the chances of getting our phones back on the path lessen. Okay?

Now can we grow up and move on from this, and do something productive?

[benefit14snake]

I agree Tson. I was never upset at any individual nor do I not take responsibility for flashing it. I am upset by the way the mods handled it. That's it.

Sent from my Axiom MAXX!!

[eckdawg5]

Not trying to rekindle a fight, I'm going to lay both grounds out and hopefully we can reach a common ground here.

Let me start by upfront saying I think that the sides that are being played are BOTH wrong. However, I especially do not agree with the positions that the site's staff are taking. I respect every developer here and every that app which we don't speak ofr and every poster and every thread posted, but this is some bull.

On the part of the staff - you simply cannot say "well, you took that chance when you flashed the leak. this is your fault." It's not just our fault. This is a huge disaster for everyone. It is VERY detrimental not only to the community but to the site's reputation. To make a thread with two statements and then hide behind one of them to save your asses looks really bad in all honesty. The OP clearly said "this IS fastbootable" and it also said "DroidRZR is not responsible for any damage done to your device". I've read too many posts by staff members that do this - you CANNOT hide behind the latter and pretend like the first statement never happened - it's a lie, accidental or not, plastered on a stickied news thread that's been read thousands of times before being edited. It's misleading. Even if you disagree - I think a bit of humoring would go a long way here. A simple statement saying "we apologize for misleading, it was not done purposely, or with foul intentions," would calm the storm a lot. I understand covering for arcane because he's a bud - but it's not even arcane's fault. It is the fault of the people that told him it was fastbootable when it was not and/or the lack of further testing.

And as for the other side of the argument - realize that this is not any one person's fault. It is your fault for jumping into this hastily, it is the testers' faults for not testing RSD more intensively, it is Moto's fault for screwing us over. Don't get mad at arcane - he's just the messenger. Don't get mad at any one person. Realize that the people who "got you into this," that you're pointing fingers at, are the only people who can get you out. Is it really in your best interest to continue pointing fingers days and days after the fact? I understand your pain, I am one of you, but this is ridiculous. We don't need a $#!+storm on top of the mess we're already in. Work with the devs, test things for them, cheer them on, start a pot... Do something beneficial instead of wasting your time and making the chances of getting our phones back on the path lessen. Okay?

Now can we grow up and move on from this, and do something productive?

Jeez...way to kill the argument...buzz killington lol
In all honesty though, you nailed it on the head...cooler heads need to prevail so we can get this fixed

[DemoManMLS]

(TSON) you nailed it down. Yeah its unfortunate how things have gone down in regards to this current situation. I was on the verge of installing the ICS .84 leak myself when word broke out about the whole fastboot issue. I decided right then and there to not install it based on that info. It's unfortunate that this bug was found after the leak was released even after a day or so of testing but on the other hand even our mods/admins are human so yes even they make mistakes.

In the end I do hope there is some kind of work around/fix so people who did install the ICS .84 leak can have a way of either getting back to .173 or at least can be able to update to the next leak/official ICS/etc.

[arcanexvi]

Not trying to rekindle a fight, I'm going to lay both grounds out and hopefully we can reach a common ground here.

Let me start by upfront saying I think that the sides that are being played are BOTH wrong. However, I especially do not agree with the positions that the site's staff are taking. I respect every developer here and every cheese-caker (seriously? censored?) and every poster and every thread posted, but this is some bull.

On the part of the staff - you simply cannot say "well, you took that chance when you flashed the leak. this is your fault." It's not just our fault. This is a huge disaster for everyone. It is VERY detrimental not only to the community but to the site's reputation. To make a thread with two statements and then hide behind one of them to save your asses looks really bad in all honesty. The OP clearly said "this IS fastbootable" and it also said "DroidRZR is not responsible for any damage done to your device". I've read too many posts by staff members that do this - you CANNOT hide behind the latter and pretend like the first statement never happened - it's a lie, accidental or not, plastered on a stickied news thread that's been read thousands of times before being edited. It's misleading. Even if you disagree - I think a bit of humoring would go a long way here. A simple statement saying "we apologize for misleading, it was not done purposely, or with foul intentions," would calm the storm a lot. I understand covering for arcane because he's a bud - but it's not even arcane's fault. It is the fault of the people that told him it was fastbootable when it was not and/or the lack of further testing.

And as for the other side of the argument - realize that this is not any one person's fault. It is your fault for jumping into this hastily, it is the testers' faults for not testing RSD more intensively, it is Moto's fault for screwing us over. Don't get mad at arcane - he's just the messenger. Don't get mad at any one person. Realize that the people who "got you into this," that you're pointing fingers at, are the only people who can get you out. Is it really in your best interest to continue pointing fingers days and days after the fact? I understand your pain, I am one of you, but this is ridiculous. We don't need a $#!+storm on top of the mess we're already in. Work with the devs, test things for them, cheer them on, start a pot... Do something beneficial instead of wasting your time and making the chances of getting our phones back on the path lessen. Okay?

Now can we grow up and move on from this, and do something productive?

I did apologize for the obvious issue. It's all I can offer you other than continuing to search for a fix. I'm not going to sit here and apologize over and over again. Accept it or not it was an error in my judgement to trust feedback other than my own. I'm working on it. It's unfortunate that our testers either had different luck than the primary user base for some reason or something else. Regardless, I trusted their feedback. I'm stuck on .84 myself with the rest of you until we find a way around it so don't think I'm content to just chill and blame the user base. I NEVER came out and said that it's your fault for flashing it but I do expect you to be civil which it has been quite the opposite. I absolutely feel partly responsible because I'm the one that posted it. However, my posting it was based on the input of testers and even users in our forum who tried to post their own threads on how to install it before we approved it. Their own threads stated that it was RSDable. Will I post another leak without personally testing it myself from home rather than trusting others while I was at work and posting it from there? No, probably not. Believe me, I was infuriated as much as many of you were. I've moved on. I'm trying to find a solution. The end. This is the last time that I will respond to flames fired in my direction over this. I've learned my lesson from this which is slightly different than your own. These are the realities of being a crack-flasher. Enjoy your evening. I'm going to get back to working on a solution now.

[_base2]

Well said, arcane. You have all of our support in this. Let's just move on. Remain focused on what's important.

I love this community. And I hate to see it torn apart in a flame war. It's disappointing to watch the fabric of the community deteriorate like this. Seeing some of our best users thinking about leaving. Blaming everyone but yourself. Taking no personal responsibility for your own actions. I am proud to be associated with those who rise above that sort of behavior. And ashamed to be associated with those who don't.