221 replies to this topic

[llawen]

thank you for posting that. I forgot about 84 billion pharmaceutical companies have to pay in extra fees. So our medicine will go up.
It will lower the deficit by 143 billion in ten years. But cost a trillion. The pros just do not add up. Sorry. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to see it.

Sent from my XT875 using Tapatalk 2

[welsalex]

thank you for posting that. I forgot about 84 billion pharmaceutical companies have to pay in extra fees. So our medicine will go up.
It will lower the deficit by 143 billion in ten years. But cost a trillion. The pros just do not add up. Sorry. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to see it.

Sent from my XT875 using Tapatalk 2

.

How can it cost 1 trillion if it lowers the deficit?

[llawen]

One post said it best. If you want medical expenses to come down get the government out of the way. Look at what happened to electricity rates when the government got out of the way. It is a battle to get our business. We are paying 7.3 cents a kwh.
Let insurance and doctors do the same. Fight for our business. Rates will fall.

Sent from my XT875 using Tapatalk 2

[welsalex]

One post said it best. If you want medical expenses to come down get the government out of the way. Look at what happened to electricity rates when the government got out of the way. It is a battle to get our business. We are paying 7.3 cents a kwh.
Let insurance and doctors do the same. Fight for our business. Rates will fall.

Sent from my XT875 using Tapatalk 2

Yet medical costs under the "current" system just keep increasing far beyond what inflation dictates. What are your facts behind costs allegedly coming down without government involvement? I see no indication of that.

[llawen]

You tell me the answer. We know it will cost 980 billion for ten years. But lower the deficit 143 billion in ten years. Only one way. The government has to make 980 billion back and 143 billion back. How in the world are they going to do that? One of the links I posted at the beginning of this thread shows 20 tax increases in Obama Care. Like I said Obama Care is a tax scam.

Sent from my XT875 using Tapatalk 2

[brewzer]

Healthcare reform in this country its about one thing. Control. A bureaucrat will now be intimately involved in every aspect of your life from how your born to when you die. Maybe if you post anti government posts or you don't belong to a particular party you won't actually get that procedure you need. A government that's powerful enough to give you everything is powerful enough to take it away. You don't want this.

[King Howie]

Government bureaucracies don't decrease the deficit, so don't expect to see that reduction.

And remember that all the costs the government will incur providing coverage (plus the associated regulatory and bureaucratic costs) must either be taken from those having incomes, borrowed, or simply printed. All 3 sources are disruptive to the economy.

The best means of providing affordable healthcare will always be by free market principles

[marleyinoc]

How are the "death panels" you incorrectly describe any different than the decisions sometimes 1 insurance person makes now? And that's for people who HAVE insurance.

Health care reform was supposedly a non partisan issue for decades, at least in talk. But nothing got done. Prices went up, our quality and bang for the buck went down.

Just so you know where I'm coming from (since your death panel statement let me know where you are coming from):

Its a shame that Congress didn't do as they are accused of and shove a single payer system through. They had the mandate but instead they let out get watered down in effort to compromise. And some bluedogs who balked , including one in my state, didn't get sent back to Congress in 2010 because they caved.

At any rate, it's a watered down mess and there are issues, like some you state, that need addressed. But it is a leap in the right direction and concentrating on repeal rather than modification had been nothing but a political tool by a Party that favors power over performance.

Thanks for listening to my opinion.

[llawen]

I am so glad we can have a polite political discussion. Think I phone users can do this LOL
Sent from my XT875 using Tapatalk 2

[brewzer]

I personally have not seen anyone refused treatment by their insurance company and my family hashas used its share. There are death panels and I'm coming from there because I'm pissed off that the democrats and the MSM had a field day vilifying Sara Palins statement about death panels when it was actually true! And this death panel will not have doctors on it only bureaucrats.

[King Howie]

Yet medical costs under the "current" system just keep increasing far beyond what inflation dictates. What are your facts behind costs allegedly coming down without government involvement? I see no indication of that.

some medical costs go up. Others go down. Look at what has happened to Lasik and plastic surgery. Those have decreased substantially, and they are two areas where free market forces are allowed.

The two most significant reasons basic healthcare costs have skyrocketed are because 1, you pay a small deductible and copay and about 20 percent of your premium. And 2, people are quick to sue for malpractice.

When people pay less for a service, they will demand more of that service. Increased demand leads to increased prices.

My doctor once told me he was sending me for an xray he felt was unnecessary. When checking me out while I was ill, he listened to my lungs. Even though my lungs were clear, he wanted verifiable documentation that was the case. Why? He was concerned that if I developed pneumonia, I may sue for malpractice. Or, if I developed it shortly after I left his office and didn't go back in (thinking it was related to my original illness) my family couldn't sue him if I died from not getting treatment.

There are many other reasons, all related to the lack of a free market

[King Howie]

a Party that favors power over performance.

Thanks for listening to my opinion.

That is much more descriptive of the Democrat party, my friend. None of their welfare policies help the poor. Their policies only preserve the status quo for those they are trying to help, while pushing those on the brink to the point of needing assistance as well

[llawen]

It is a well known fact that the democratic party favors big government. They believe that that is what grows the economy. Government can do a better job than the states can. Republicans believe the states can do a better job and thus we end up with a smaller government.

Sent from my XT875 using Tapatalk 2

[King Howie]

I just read the US Census Bureau estimated nearly 110 million people received some forms of welfare (this didn't include medicare, social security, etc.).

From previous research, I know IRS data shows they receive an estimated 145 million individual tax returns each year.

So roughly 145 million are paying for 110 million. How can anyone think we don't need to reform welfare?

More food for thought: IRS data also shows the top 50% of income earners (those with an adjusted gross income of $32ish thousand dollars a year) pay 97% of the taxes the government takes in as individual income tax revenue.

In other words, roughly 72.5 million are providing for 110 million

[llawen]

I know sickening isn't it. 1/3 of Americas population is on welfare. Before Obama took office, it was way lower. They call him the welfare president for a reason.

Sent from my XT875 using Tapatalk 2

[llawen]

We are a consumer based economy. The more people spend the more jobs are created and the economy grows. More Americans go back to work.
Romney has the right idea. Keep more money in our pockets. Keep taxes low. In turn we spend more and it starts growing the economy.
Obama is just the opposite. Raise taxes to try to get more revenue.
Romney understands that even with taxes low, as the economy grows more Americans are paying in that is more revenue.

Sent from my XT875 using Tapatalk 2

[llawen]

Obamacare Pros

The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office lists the advantages of Obamacare:

• The Act was designed to reduce overall health care costs by making services available to the 32 million who currently can't get insurance. They often use a hospital emergency room as their primary care physician, increasing costs for everyone. This starts in 2014.
• For people who can't afford health insurance, the Federal government will pay the states to add them to Medicaid. The income requirement is expanded up to 133% of the

  Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

  - roughly $29,000 for a family of four.
• Those who don't qualify for the expanded Medicaid will receive tax credits if their income is below 400% of the poverty level ($88,000 for a family of four). States will be required to set up insurance exchanges to make it easier to shop for private health insurance coverage.
• Insurance companies cannot deny children coverage for pre-existing conditions. This benefit applies to everyone in 2014. Insurance companies can no longer drop anyone from coverage once they get sick. If a company denies someone coverage, that person can go to an external appeals process.
• Parents can put their children up to age 26 on their health insurance plans. This will bring more profit for health insurance companies, since they will receive more premiums without higher costs for these healthier individuals. As of 2012, more than three million previously uninsured young people were added. (Source:

  Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

  )
• The Medicare "donut hole" gap in coverage will be eliminated by 2020.
• People with existing health insurance will keep it. Businesses prefer to offer a tax-free benefit like health insurance to attract good workers. That won't change under Obamacare.
• Obamacare does not apply to businesses with less than 50 employees. Larger businesses are required to offer health insurance, but receive tax credits to help employees pay premiums. In 2014, the tax credit increases to 50%.
• The Act will lower the budget deficit by $143 billion over the next 10 years by raising some taxes and shifting more cost burdens. (Source: CBO

  Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

  ; Wall Street Journal,

  Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

  , June 28, 2012; NPR,

  Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

  , June 27, 2012)

Obamacare Cons

The CBO (and other non-partisan groups, as cited below) also list some disadvantages of the Act.

• Increased coverage may actually raise health care costs. That's because many people will receive preventative care and testing who, fortunately, find out they didn't have that critical illness. However, the CBO found that additional testing, such as cancer screening and cholesterol tests, will lead to higher net medical spending. (Source: CBO,

  Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

  , August 7, 2009)
• Those who don't purchase insurance, and don't qualify for Medicaid or

  Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

  , will be assessed a tax of $95 (or 1% of income, whichever is higher) in 2014. It increases to $325 (or 2% of income) in 2015, and $695 (or 2.5% of income) in 2016. (Find out how to calculate it in

  Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

  )
• About 4 million people, or 1.2% of the population, will wind up paying the tax rather than purchase health insurance. The CBO estimates this will total $54 billion.(Source: Washington Post Factchecker,

  Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

  , July 6, 2012)
• Taxes will be raised on one million individuals with annual incomes above a threshold of $200,000 and four million couples filing jointly with incomes in excess of $250,000. They would pay a total of 2.35% (up from 1.45%) Medicare taxes on income above the threshold. In addition, they will pay an additional 3.8% Medicare taxes. This would apply to the lesser of income from dividends, capital gains, rent and royalties or income above the threshold. (Source: Smart Money,

  Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

  , June 28, 2012)
• Pharmaceutical companies will pay an extra $84.8 billion in fees over the next ten years to pay for closing the "donut hole" in Medicare Part D. This could raise drug costs if they pass this onto consumers.
• In 2018, insurance companies will be assessed a 40% excise tax on "Cadillac" health plans. These are plans with annual premiums exceeding $10,200 for individuals or $27,500 for families. Many of these plans are for people in high-risk pools, such as older workers or union workers in high-risk jobs. (Source: Kaiser,

  Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

  , March 18, 2010)
• In 2013, medical-device manufacturers and importers will pay a 2.3% excise tax. Indoor tanning services already pay a 10% excise tax. This could discourage those businesses from hiring new employees.
• Between 3-5 million people could lose their company-sponsored health care plans. Many businesses will find it more cost-effective to pay the penalty and let their employees purchase their own insurance plans on the exchanges. Other small businesses might find they can get a better plan through the state-run exchanges. (Source: CBO,

  Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

  , March 15, 2012)
• There are 30.1 million people who currently buy their own private health insurance. Many of them may need to get another plan if their insurance doesn't meet the minimum standards -- which haven't yet been established. (Source: Factcheck.org,

  Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

  , June 28, 2012)
• In 2014, families can only deduct medical expenses that exceed 10% of income. Today, they can deduct expenses that exceed 7.5% of income.

Source:

Please Login or Register to see this Hidden Content

Folks please read this carefully. Over half of it is tax increases. Then read the line about lowering the deficit by 143 billion. They tell you how they are going to do it. "By collecting taxes"

Just remember , we are a consumer based economy. How do we get consumers spending more. We all know that if we had more each week, we would feel comfortable to spend a little more. My friends that creates jobs.

Sent from my XT875 using Tapatalk 2

[brewzer]

I know sickening isn't it. 1/3 of Americas population is on welfare. Before Obama took office, it was way lower. They call him the welfare president for a reason.

There's a reason he's called the welfare president. He eliminated the necessity of the work requirement for welfare recipients. You didn't hear much about this just like you don't hear about most of Obama's atrocities with him having the MSM in his hip pocket. You even had the first black president, Bill Clinton, lie (like he did under oath), at the democratic convention that Obama didn't weaken the welfare reform act that Clinton himself signed into law in 1996, and he didn't have sex with that woman. This happened this past July.

"In July of this year, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) granted itself authority to “waive compliance” with all of the work provisions in the Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF) program.
HHS has declared that the work requirements written in the law are no longer legally binding on state governments and that they can and will be replaced by alternative rules devised unilaterally by the HHS bureaucracy. This action grossly violates the intent and letter of the welfare reform law."

[welsalex]

Sigh Too much fox news that the right wing relies on. Also the gop has done a good job convincing working poor that obamacare is bad when it is actually a good program for them.

[King Howie]

Sigh Too much fox news that the right wing relies on. Also the gop has done a good job convincing working poor that obamacare is bad when it is actually a good program for them.

I almost never watch fox news. I bet you don't, either. I bet you get your fix from the likes of Maher, Stewart and Marxist stations like cnn and msnbc

And most of the working poor will vote for whomever will promise to give them more of what others have earned. Don't you worry about that one iota.

Of course, what's good for the working poor isn't good for the country